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WARREN -- As the rules stand now, deadly weapons are not welcome in a courtroom or a building housing one. That could change pending an Ohio House vote on House Bill 272 that would extend concealed carry laws to allow citizens to carry guns in municipal buildings that contain courtrooms.
Warren Municipal Court Judge Thomas Gysegem said the proposed legislation invites a "match" to a "gunpowder party." House Bill 272 had its fourth hearing pending a decision by legislators on whether to enact it as law. Its passage would allow under specific circumstances outlined in the seven-page bill, for citizens with a concealed carry permit to carry their firearm into municipal buildings that also house courtrooms.
SAFETY
Gysegem, who presides over Courtroom 2 of Warren Municipal Court, said he's often the first judge a person sees after an arrest or being hauled off to jail.
"Tempers can be at a very high level because they never simmer down from what happened," Gysegem said.
Looking at incidents that occur in the courtroom, Gysegem said violence is typically directed toward the defendant, but tension is present when the victim or victim's family member faces the accused person in court.
Going over some of the security measures of the building, he said those entering first will pass through metal detectors overseen by a Warren police officer who screens traffic flowing in and out of the building and monitors court proceedings.
Gysegem said security on the municipal court level also filters from court to court during sessions and the building's security is adaptable to certain circumstances.
"If there's a heated situation and the proceeding is over we would ask, say, the victim or victim's family to remain while the defendants were escorted out," he said.
The judge said the court incorporates video arraignments, which allow defendants to appear in court from the confines of the county jail.
"It adds a level of protection and decreases the likelihood of violence so that was a good outcome of the arraignments," Gysegem said.
The possibility of night court sessions being added to municipal court, Gysegem said, also would be a "potential stumbling block," if the concealed carry proposal passes.
"We have gunpowder parties down here every day and you start having people armed, it's bringing a match to a gunpowder party," he said. "It's the kind of law when you look at the makeup of municipal buildings in Ohio and the sheer number of them that have courts, council and police all in one building -- I'm just wondering how pro-law enforcement this would be," Gysegem said.
He also wondered aloud whether city police this could affect, including Warren officers, would welcome "inviting guns into their home."
Gysegem's court is just a floor above the Warren Police Department on the first floor, which also is home to the caucus room where Warren City Council meets.
"I wonder about the intimidation factors with local legislators, councilman voting on controversial issues or court's ruling on difficult cases, is this something that could be intimidating to the governmental process," Gysegem said.
He added: "It's paramount for us that we ensure the safety of the public that attend these hearings and the safety of our employees."
The judge lauded the relationship the court has with police housed just below them. On rare instances, he said he's been able to call for more police presence on the floor when sensing the possibility of trouble, "and that's without guns," he added.
"The victims, defendants, employees, lawyers, cops, they're the frontline," Gysegem said, further stating his obligation as judge to maintain the safety of everyone that passes through the court.
If city council were to pass the measure, the judge said they'd have to alter some procedures in consideration of the employees that may be on the second floor while court is not in session.
Traffic fees and fines can be paid in the building, and a prosecutor's office and victim's advocate office, along with court personnel, have offices on the second floor.
The building is similar to that of the city building in Lebanon, Ohio, where the conversation of whether citizens should have the right to carry firearms in city buildings came about in 2020.
State Rep. Adam Mathews, a Republican from Lebanon, was the primary sponsor of the bill, which Ohio House members voted 57-29 earlier this month to make an exception to an Ohio law banning possessing any firearm in a building that houses a courtroom.
The legislation, Mathews previously said, was designed for smaller communities using buildings for multiple functions.
"This legislation clarifies the law and empowers municipalities like the ones in my district," Mathews said in a statement after the House approved the bill. "This is a victory for both Second Amendment rights and responsible governance," the Cincinnati Enquirer reported.
Warren Assistant Prosecutor Lewis Guarnieri said this bill will affect Warren Municipal Court, where he works for Warren Municipal Judge Terry Ivanchak, but he thinks it will have the biggest effect on larger municipalities with even more traffic throughout their building.
Guarnieri said he doesn't foresee the proposed legislation having a major impact on how they conduct operations, citing multiple security measures previously outlined by Gysegem.
It would be up to each community to decide whether to allow weapons during times when court is not in session. The law would not affect common pleas courthouses because weapons are not allowed in those, and the law would not change that.
LEBANON
Lebanon City Council approved an ordinance in March 2020 giving concealed carry license holders permission to carry firearms into the city building during council meetings. The building also doubles as a municipal court.
Lebanon City Council member Joe Shafer said he wanted to be able to bring his firearm to council meetings to protect himself in case an active shooter targeted council members or others in the meeting, according to a 2020 story in the Dayton Daily News.
Shafer said he did not want the city to have to pay the cost to have security at council meetings.
Lebanon Vice Mayor Mark Messer expressed concern that the signs prohibiting firearms in the Lebanon city building could have the opposite effect on someone bent on violence, seeing a gun-free zone as an inviting place to wreak havoc. A few other Ohio cities also have addressed the issue, the newspaper reported.
LOCALLY
"The stop here seems to be that in order to have this, a city council must affirmatively pass this,"Gysegem said, something he "seriously doubts" would have consensus based on the current makeup of Warren city council.
Thumbing through the bill, the judge questioned how serious the original sponsors of the bill were about the legislation and if they applied the law to themselves.
"Can I go down as a citizen with my weapon as a spectator when the Ohio legislature is in session," Gysegem said, in his eye test of the laws language, "I don't see that provision in here."
He made reference to updated concealed carry laws that lifted past requirements on having a concealed carry permit to carry a firearm inside a restaurant or bar unless that person is ineligible for permitless carry. The law was largely opposed by The Ohio Fraternal Order of Police, who cautioned against the passage of Senate Bill 215 citing a potential risk for the safety of police officers.
It was signed into law by Gov. Mike DeWine, taking effect on June 13, 2022.
Thinking about the latest proposed changes to concealed carry laws, Gysegem asked, "Could this be another example of legislators doing something that most Ohioans aren't really interested in? Because when they do things like that or they do things most Ohioans are interested in, you get ballot initiatives."
Gysegem cited the examples of the marijuana legalization and abortion rights on the Nov. 7 ballot that drew large numbers of voters.