Fuming Over Fines
By BILL RODGERS Tribune ChronicleArticle Photos
WARREN - In the three years Ohio has been smoke-free, not a single building has qualified for the ''private club'' exemption, according to state officials, leaving some clubs like the VFW Post 1090 in Warren expressing outrage and frustration.
That club on High Street has racked up four smoking violations totaling $1,600 since enforcement began.
Despite a pitch during the 2006 election campaign to make the state smoke-free that smoking would remain permissible at private clubs, Ohio Department of Health spokesman Kristopher Weiss said this week that none of the 280,000 public places covered by Ohio's ban has been able to meet the stringent rules outlining a private club exemption.
''They just want to be left alone,'' said U.S. Marine Corps veteran and Post 1090 member Richard Harvey.
According to Harvey, the post just recently and grudgingly began directing its members to obey the law and smoke outside, but they're filing a brief with the city board of health arguing that they should be exempted as a private club as promised during the election. The post argues that the public is not allowed in the building, that there are no members younger than 18 and that employees are OK with smoking continuing.
In short: They feel cheated.
''Veterans organizations including the VFW were told that they would be exempt, which caused many of our membership of age not to bother to vote at all,'' the brief states.
The brief carries signatures from the post's membership and employees.
According to the Ohio exemption, private clubs must adhere to a number requirements such as having a nonprofit liquor permit, having a building that is not shared with another entity, requiring that only members be present in the building and that all members are older than 18. In addition, the club must have no employees - paid or unpaid, Weiss said. If a club has an employee, the smoking ban is in effect.
''Employee is defined as a person who provides any service regardless of whether they're compensated," Weiss said.
That means volunteers, or employees who are also club members, cannot exempt the club from the ban. According to Weiss, this requirement is written into the law itself, meaning that the committee charged with writing the rules of enforcement could not change it to offer exemptions for volunteers or member-employees.
"That would be overstepping our (the committee's) authority," Weiss said.
In June 2008, the Ohio Supreme Court rejected an appeal that would exempt veterans halls and other private clubs from the smoking ban. The decision let stand a ruling that said the Ohio Department of Health didn't have the authority to write rules exempting private clubs.
The ban passed with about 60 percent of the vote in 2006.
Harvey and Post Commander Jack Hilles said the ban was costing the post, but in more than fines. Hilles said this hurts the post's income as veterans decide to meet in other places that allow smoking. Harvey said the post donates about $40,000 a year to local charities and worried that the fines coupled with a loss of income could hurt that.
Still, both Warren's Deputy Health Director Bob Pinti and Weiss said enforcement was going smoothly since it began almost three years ago. Numbers from the state support this: Investigations, warnings and most fines have shown a downward trend in 2009 when compared to 2007 and 2008.
"I would say complaints slowed down drastically," Pinti said.
People report sightings of smoking violations by calling a state hotline. The state then sends the complaint to a local health agency to investigate. If the health worker finds smoking at the location, the owner of the building can face a warning or escalating fines. To date, the state has invoiced more than $1 million in fines, and has collected more than $400,000, according to figures from the state health department.
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DrSpankit
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11-15-09 8:55 AM
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mjMcFadden is smoking nuts.
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MichaelJMcFadden
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11-12-09 12:24 PM
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Warren wrote, "Most smokers are rude when it comes to where and when they can blow foul smoke in your face while your trying to eat or be in public." That's not true at all Warren. Unless Antismokers make it against the law most smokers are quite happy to sit down far away from anyone it might bother, in their own bars and restaurants where smoking is allowed while those who are bothered by it go to ones where it is not allowed. What you need to do is yell at the politicians who've thrown the smokers out on the street where they annoy you. Get them to overturn the ban and your world will be a happier place. Michael J. McFadden Author of "Dissecting Antismokers' Brains"
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jonathon
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11-12-09 11:51 AM
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You have a government that taxes tobacco products so high it's almost a joke. The government publicly tells everyone to quit smoking as it has been proven to be life threatning. Does anyone actually believe that the powers in the system really want anyone to QUIT smoking???It's a cash cow for the politicians and they will NEVER truly ban tobacco products.
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Warrendwn
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11-12-09 6:29 AM
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Most smokers are rude when it comes to where and when they can blow foul smoke in your face while your trying to eat or be in public. go to any bar and you need to take a shower after leaving from the stink of smoke it burns the eyes so bad you cant even stay in the place .Tobacco is a BAD DRUG ban it and outlaw it who does not know it kills ?Its foul and your outnumbered so it will not get better no matter how much you cry.
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brogers
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11-12-09 12:16 AM
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I am fuming too! This relentless anti-smoking nanny state agenda is so far reaching and people are catching onto the fraud and corruption behind smoking bans. Had enough of it and I don't even belong to a veteran's club. This nonsense has gone to far!
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marbee
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11-11-09 10:13 PM
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Smokers are 60,000,000 strong. When are we going to tell these lawmakers that we aren't going to get shoved out anymore! Veterans should stand up once more and say enough! You fought for freedom that is no more, we all deserve better than laws based on lies!
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smokedbacon2
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11-11-09 9:19 PM
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Weiss failed to mention that the Ohio Department of Health went along with exempting Private Clubs as they excluded them when they wrote the rules! It was the AMERICAN CANCER SOCIETY that SUED the OHIO DEPARTMENT of HEALTH to put the shaft to the Private Clubs! The Anti veteran American American Cancer Society is to blame for this!
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snowbird
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11-11-09 8:53 PM
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The controversy of second hand smoke could be ended quickly by a simple act of legislation. Anyone presenting information represented as science or health reliant information, which is later found to be false or misleading, would be rewarded with a mandatory ten year jail sentence. I can guarantee the bandwagon of smoker hatred would end overnight and the profiteers would be making deals in self preservation convicting each other. Similar to the last time their ilk rose to prominence and Doctors were hanged at Nuremberg. The laws of Autonomy created in the wake, are largely being minimized by the bigots and zealots of Public Healthism, they are laws we found at the expense of millions who died without them. No one has the right to make health choices for others and no one has a right to demand rights to the detriment of others, especially with the convenience of a lie, as we find in the “toxic effect of second hand smoke”.
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Annie53
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11-11-09 8:20 PM
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Fact is............most of the smoking members now stay home. Why spend your hard earned money where you are not wanted? We used to go to the VFW to relax, socialize and have a few drinks. There is nothing relaxing about standing outside exposed to the weather. Instead: Invite a few friends over......smoke, drink and relax at home.........the only way to go since the ban. The money we save by staying home? How about......... a new, big screen TV, or a pool table, or a computer upgrade, or a home improvement............the list is endless.
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bruISback
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11-11-09 6:23 PM
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it be easier to fine them ciggy-smoking vets on HIgh st than bust up all them dope dealers doing business a block or 2 away. guess they don't be movin so fast
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paulydel
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11-11-09 6:21 PM
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Its a private club and people go there by choice and should be granted an exemption.
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marbee
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11-11-09 3:47 PM
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The health workers and those in charge would have the Nazi's terrified! Seems to me the vets should not worry, if and when it comes to it, there will be plenty defending freedom, but will be done on our own soil!
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marbee
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11-11-09 3:44 PM
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How on earth did people get along in past years? Where do you people think these smoking ban ideas came from? Out of the air? BIG PHARMA! They are the only ones that stand to gain from this social engineering. They have worked very hard to the tune of ONE BILLION DOLLARS to sucker the people who think they are harmed by a little smoke! They will make TEN BILLION DOLLARS from all of this! What a nation of sheeple we have become from the dumbing down in our school systems! Our nations founders are rolling in their graves!
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MichaelJMcFadden
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11-11-09 3:03 PM
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Jonathon wrote, "From what I understand this VFWs post own members are the ones making the complaints therefore resulting in fines. Seems to me ALL the members are NOT OK with smoking inside. What gives???" Jonathon, if it's at all like what I've seen in Philly and heard of from elsewhere, the Snitches are usually obnoxious drunks who've gotten 86'd from a bar and use the ban as a way to "get back" for being thrown out, or sometimes it's simply a desperate bid by other bars that are dying from the ban and believe their biz will pick up if they help crack down on defiant businesses. Michael J. McFadden Author of "Dissecting Antismokers' Brains"
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marbee
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11-11-09 2:47 PM
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Anti-smoker equals anti-freedom. Just remember, United we stand, divided we fall. The anti's won't be very popular then! Anti's are like reformed alcoholics. They NEED someone to tell them how to live because they can't do if for themselves!
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Tsquare
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11-11-09 1:21 PM
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What a pathetic picture in the Tribune today. A bunch of old men smoking cigarettes and ******** about their rights. Way to set an example for the young people. I'm tired of hearing about this whole issue. Just because you were in the military doesn't give you the right to break the law! The law say's that smoking is illegal in your club so stop smoking! If you don't like the law then get it changed, but untill you do STOP SMOKING. Instead of wasting your money on fines why don't you spend some on stop smoking materials. I guess you'll have to find a new way to kill yourselves.
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midname
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11-11-09 11:08 AM
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WARRENDWN;hey man'do you want north and south carolina to go bankrupt ?
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jonathon
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11-11-09 9:37 AM
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From what I understand this VFWs post own members are the ones making the complaints therefore resulting in fines. Seems to me ALL the members are NOT OK with smoking inside. What gives???
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Warrendwn
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11-11-09 8:54 AM
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Tobacco is a bad drug .It should be a schedule 1 drug and baned and outlawed.
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Handala
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11-11-09 8:46 AM
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Wonder why these Vets were sent by the government too breathe their stinky mustard gas,napalm,agent orange etc.,but now forbid them too breathe nicotine in THEIR PRIVATE CLUB!? Great too be free,eh?Hmm?
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DrSpankit
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11-11-09 6:44 AM
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Well,well....We have us a real time...big time How trained does one have to be to smell stinking ciggs burning inside a bar/club?Philadelphia lawyer (sounding) kinda of logic now....Pointless defense...It is the law.Vets are not above it.Move the dumpster closer so they can just toss the rotting lungs into it as they get hacked up. Thanks to all that served...May you not die feeling like someone has'one hand around your throat and another over your nose and face,choking off your air until you drop.'
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MichaelJMcFadden
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11-11-09 2:07 AM
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A quick additional note: I believe at least one Ohio court has ruled against involuntary servitude regarding this issue. I.E. that unpaid, untrained people cannot be impressed to actually act as officers of the law and that their duties are limited merely to informing customers that they are in violation of the law. I believe such interpretation has been ruled elsewhere as well: Suffolk NY comes to mind. - MJM
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MichaelJMcFadden
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11-11-09 1:33 AM
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VFW Post 1090 had been making $40,000 in annual donations to local charities before the smoking ban but you don't see too many stories talking about the impact of the ban on such things. The antismoking lobby is trying to make sure people focus on the "positive," such as the nice clean air inside the empty bar, rather than on such unimportant negatives as the veterans slipping on the ice while forced to stand out in the cold or the children's charities that close down due to lack of donations. Veterans clubs here in Philadelphia have a similar problem but it's all just a matter of what antismoking advocates call proper "Perception Management." Perhaps the post should be asked to rearrange its dumpsters so that the vets could stand out of sight behind them and the ban would get better support. Maybe that would make the Antismokers happier.... although it won't help the children. Michael J. McFadden, Author of "Dissecting Antismokers Brains"
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DrSpankit
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11-11-09 1:08 AM
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gonna need to call 912 for these healthy looking fellas before the snow flies.Beyond 911.poor dude on the rail,looks like he is just hanging on now.big marine in picture gonna pop.Guy is back can't make it past hte door.They look happy,no?Folks be burying more of your brothers from cigg related health issues,then you ever did from battle..Senseless way to die off..Having fundraisers so local charities can help the smokers from your post die.
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